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1.73L sleeved B6ZE

34K views 123 replies 36 participants last post by  boosted34 
#1 · (Edited)
So this idea/rant/project is the result of having too many parts and resources laying around:

Let me start off by saying that I run an automotive machine shop, have been for a few years now, and kiiind of know what I'm doing. I've installed dry cylinder sleeves many times, and have the resources and capabilities to make this happen.

The plan:

With a bore spacing of 86mm, I feel confident that I can get sleeves that are just small enough on the inside to be bored back out to 81mm (3/32" wall sleeves are an easy find). This, if you're any good at subtraction, leaves a cylinder wall thickness (on either side) of 2.5mm, or 0.098". Yeah, i know that's pretty darn thin.

Yeah, the sleeves will be (almost) touching each other...and there's a possibility of sleeves shifting...and/or not sealing against the head...but you know what? I can, so I'm gonna! The worst that happens is that i get it all installed and it doesn't work. ooohz noez. It was a trashed block anyways.

The whole reason for doing this...was not for the bump in displacement. Yeah, it'll be a ~1.73L block then...but have you looked at how close the valves are to the cylinder walls? Especially the exhaust valves? Moving the wall out (from 78mm to 81mm) will move the wall 1.5mm away from the valves and either a) give the valves the ability to use more of their full circumference to flow air, or b) allow me to put in bigger valves and seats (that will then be back to the cylinder walls, lol). Thus getting more air in and out of said engine.

Like I said, even it doesn't work, I'm out $100 in sleeves, and about 8 hours of my life. At least at that point it will have been documented (I will take a tonnnn of pictures with dimensions, etc) for the community. That, to me, is worth it.

I'll hopefully have the spare block torn down by this weekend, and I will, of course keep this thread updated as much as possible.

17 AUG 2013 UPDATE:

so....according to http://www.zealautowerks.com/bseries.html:
B16 piston: 81mm, 30mm CH, 6.01cc dome
B16 rod:134mm OL
Miata Crank: 83.5mm
Miata Head: 36cc
Miata HG: 0.040"
Miata Block: 206.5mm height

12.0:1 CR
1721cc
1.6:1 R/S
0.030" piston to deck

obviously theres no telling how the valves are going to go into/around the B16A pistons...

Assuming my numbers are right as far as Miata deck height and stroke are correct, then HOLY **** THIS MIGHT WORK.
 
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#8 ·
i completely agree, and as a result (short answer, 'yes'), im definitely leaning more in the direction of high compression all motor.

and OF COURSE i'll have flow numbers before and after...but lets tackle the block work first, as that'll determine how i reshape the combustion chambers manually.
 
#15 ·
If you could fit a BP4W or BPVE head on it you'd be in business, otherwise you're still stuck with the 1.6 crappy head. Please do it so we have another thread to point people to to show them how terrible the 1.6 is and how pointless it is to work over.
 
#22 ·
B6ZE head can be made to flow, and there are cams that can be had to use the flow.



OP, I am very interested in your results, the bore to stroke ratio will be much better. Pistons with big compression would be on my list.
 
#24 ·
B6ZE head can be made to flow, and there are cams that can be had to use the flow.



OP, I am very interested in your results, the bore to stroke ratio will be much better. Pistons with big compression would be on my list.
That is better than what I would have expected.

Compared to what?

F20c head for example(no porting). It's not to shabby.

Port# --- Lift --- L/D --- Range - Test-Pres - Flow-Pres - Corr-CFM
Int #1 --- 0.050 --- 0.035 --- 2 ----- 27.85 ----- 74.10 ----- 53.10
Int #1 --- 0.100 --- 0.071 --- 3 ----- 27.95 ----- 70.50 ----- 104.80
Int #1 --- 0.150 --- 0.106 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 49.80 ----- 147.10
Int #1 --- 0.200 --- 0.141 --- 4 ----- 27.96 ----- 60.80 ----- 179.50
Int #1 --- 0.250 --- 0.176 --- 4 ----- 27.94 ----- 74.00 ----- 218.60
Int #1 --- 0.300 --- 0.212 --- 4 ----- 27.94 ----- 83.40 ----- 246.40
Int #1 --- 0.350 --- 0.247 --- 4 ----- 26.95 ----- 90.60 ----- 272.50
Int #1 --- 0.400 --- 0.282 --- 4 ----- 24.81 ----- 94.60 ----- 296.60
Int #1 --- 0.450 --- 0.318 --- 5 ----- 27.76 ----- 69.50 ----- 312.90
Int #1 --- 0.500 --- 0.353 --- 5 ----- 27.18 ----- 70.60 ----- 321.20

Exh #1 --- 0.050 --- 0.041 --- 2 ----- 27.91 ----- 54.20 ----- 43.00
Exh #1 --- 0.100 --- 0.082 --- 3 ----- 27.96 ----- 51.80 ----- 83.10
Exh #1 --- 0.150 --- 0.123 --- 3 ----- 27.95 ----- 73.80 ----- 118.40
Exh #1 --- 0.200 --- 0.164 --- 3 ----- 27.96 ----- 91.90 ----- 147.40
Exh #1 --- 0.250 --- 0.205 --- 4 ----- 27.89 ----- 55.70 ----- 176.90
Exh #1 --- 0.300 --- 0.246 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 62.20 ----- 197.40
Exh #1 --- 0.350 --- 0.287 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 66.00 ----- 209.40
Exh #1 --- 0.400 --- 0.328 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 68.50 ----- 217.30
Exh #1 --- 0.450 --- 0.369 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 70.50 ----- 223.70
Exh #1 --- 0.500 --- 0.410 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 72.20 ----- 229.10
If you are going to do a comparison, you kind of need to compare it with a motor of similar bore size, or at the very least the same displacement, don't you think?
 
#23 ·
Compared to what?

F20c head for example(no porting). It's not to shabby.

Port# --- Lift --- L/D --- Range - Test-Pres - Flow-Pres - Corr-CFM
Int #1 --- 0.050 --- 0.035 --- 2 ----- 27.85 ----- 74.10 ----- 53.10
Int #1 --- 0.100 --- 0.071 --- 3 ----- 27.95 ----- 70.50 ----- 104.80
Int #1 --- 0.150 --- 0.106 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 49.80 ----- 147.10
Int #1 --- 0.200 --- 0.141 --- 4 ----- 27.96 ----- 60.80 ----- 179.50
Int #1 --- 0.250 --- 0.176 --- 4 ----- 27.94 ----- 74.00 ----- 218.60
Int #1 --- 0.300 --- 0.212 --- 4 ----- 27.94 ----- 83.40 ----- 246.40
Int #1 --- 0.350 --- 0.247 --- 4 ----- 26.95 ----- 90.60 ----- 272.50
Int #1 --- 0.400 --- 0.282 --- 4 ----- 24.81 ----- 94.60 ----- 296.60
Int #1 --- 0.450 --- 0.318 --- 5 ----- 27.76 ----- 69.50 ----- 312.90
Int #1 --- 0.500 --- 0.353 --- 5 ----- 27.18 ----- 70.60 ----- 321.20

Exh #1 --- 0.050 --- 0.041 --- 2 ----- 27.91 ----- 54.20 ----- 43.00
Exh #1 --- 0.100 --- 0.082 --- 3 ----- 27.96 ----- 51.80 ----- 83.10
Exh #1 --- 0.150 --- 0.123 --- 3 ----- 27.95 ----- 73.80 ----- 118.40
Exh #1 --- 0.200 --- 0.164 --- 3 ----- 27.96 ----- 91.90 ----- 147.40
Exh #1 --- 0.250 --- 0.205 --- 4 ----- 27.89 ----- 55.70 ----- 176.90
Exh #1 --- 0.300 --- 0.246 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 62.20 ----- 197.40
Exh #1 --- 0.350 --- 0.287 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 66.00 ----- 209.40
Exh #1 --- 0.400 --- 0.328 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 68.50 ----- 217.30
Exh #1 --- 0.450 --- 0.369 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 70.50 ----- 223.70
Exh #1 --- 0.500 --- 0.410 --- 4 ----- 27.95 ----- 72.20 ----- 229.10
 
#29 ·
I did a quick search. All numbers are at 28" of H20. Mine was tested at 25".

Stock miata 1.8, did not specify what head.
201.82 @ 0.5" intake
158.68 " exhaust

Stock B16
252.0 @ 0.5" intake
186 " exhaust

Stock S2000
295.0 @ 0.5" intake
I posted this in my build thread on Miataturbo. As you can see, the B16 flows quite well, these numbers are all stock, and I am pretty sure the Miata head tested was a 94-97 version. I believe the B16 is a larger bore than the B6. The Honda cylinder heads are hard to compete against.
 
#31 ·
Especially the B16... Thats the head of choice for almost every B series build, and 200HP was very common with NA builds... I say go for it, Ive always liked the B6, Im curious to see what you can pull off...
 
#32 ·
Cam sheet as requested;



OP, I encourage you on this project, and have been contemplating doing somewhat the same thing. The advantage of short stroke and a large bore will give impressive results I am quite sure. It still ends up a little under square, but much better than the stock bore/stroke ratio.

Do you have a deck plate for the B6?

I would like to know more about the build plans.
 
#38 ·
and BTW...

one of the reasons i settled on the 81mm bore is that...

wait for it....

all Honda B-series pistons are 81mm stock! thatll give me 8-10 different relief styles, compression heights, etc, etc to choose from. AND THEYRE ALL STUPID CHEAP!!! (i already know the pin is either 1 or 2 mm different than our rod end; i may just be able to get away with throwing a bushing in there if the honda pin is 2mm smaller)

obviously there's a lot of variables when it comes to that^ whole situation, but this also gives me the ability and option to start thinking about minimizing the compression height, and maximizing the rod length, as to move the rod/stroke ratio around a little bit.

but thats all going to be down the road a ways.
 
#39 ·
ooooohhhhhh snap:

the B16A rod is the same big end as the Mazda rod...which alleviates the piston pin dilemma. aaaand its .060 longer. takes r/s ratio from ~1.57 to dead on 1.60. JAM.

now to look into compression heights b/t the two...

Strange things are afoot (at the CircleK)
 
#40 ·
RE torque plates, home made vs purchased. I would think that significant engineering goes into the good purchased torque plates to accurately simulate the overall and local stiffness of the head. Since you know, thats what they're supposed to do and some random steel plate isnt going to have the same overall or local stiffness's of the head. But how close it needs to simulate it to actually get a round bore is the question.
 
#42 ·
so....according to http://www.zealautowerks.com/bseries.html:
B16 piston: 81mm, 30mm CH, 6.01cc dome
B16 rod:134mm OL
Miata Crank: 83.5mm
Miata Head: 36cc
Miata HG: 0.040"
Miata Block: 206.5mm height

12.0:1 CR
1721cc
1.6:1 R/S
0.030" piston to deck

obviously theres no telling how the valves are going to go into/around the B16A pistons...

Assuming my numbers are right as far as Miata deck height and stroke are correct, then HOLY **** THIS MIGHT WORK.
 
#46 ·
caveat: this calculation was all based on internet researched dimensions...which i take with a boulder of salt. when i get my donor block torn down, i will measure all of these for my damn self, and verify or correct accordingly.

Gonna sleeve it just to bore it out? I was planing to overbore to 81.5mm without sleeving it for some low comp pistons.
::thumbsdown:: :)
i don't see that working well. when i'm doing this one, you can come by and look at a cylinder thats at 81.5mm and we can see how much wall is left. or, more accurately, how little is there. even my plan for this motor has no boost in its future, and i'm concerned about cylinder pressures causing wall distortion and/or failure.

There is a head that has VVT that will fit the 1.6l block. It is from the ZL-VE motor
say waaaaaat? going to research that **** like now!
 
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