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Discussion Starter #1
I am getting close to ordering a Fuji kit for my '94 CSP car with link ecu. Presently doing my home work on the install. Question about the IAC. In Bruce's install notes he modifies a original IAC, but I see on the Fuji site a IAC is now included in kit. I assume this is part of what I see as the block with the red vac. hoses running to it in later install (Foo?) pictures. I assume my link map hose and brake vac. line will connect to this canister. It appears to be rectangular not the round one shown in earlier pictures. I see Kit also contains a temp. sensor which I don't think I can use as the link comes with one. Where does the Fuji temp. sensor mount? My link temp sensor is a circuit board about an inch long and half inch wide. I assume I will need to get or make a inlet plenum to mount the link sensor. Thanks for any comments. Chuck
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

"Thanks for any comments."

Well, since you say the above....

I wish I had some good answers for your questions Chucky but I do not. I do have sincere congrats tho on becoming a proud owner of FujiRacing IRTBs!!

Awesome way to start '07.

Please keep posting with your experiences as you progress.

Enjoy that growl!

FH
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Went back and looked closer at posted pictures. I think I now understand the IAC provied by Fuji. I appears to be in two parts with the vac. canister mounted between the two parts. The better mounting location seems to be the rear one (if you don't have ABS) this allowing more room for a inlet plenum and front mounted filter. Moving the IAC plug to this new location would only require pulling the wire from the protective sleeve. I still can't see where the Fuji provided temp. pick up goes, I guess I should just call Jimmy. Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Just checked under the hood, maybe locating the IAC/vac. block in front of the washer bottle is not a good idea if you have a strut brace. Very little room. However, there does seem to be room to mount it beside the washer bottle on the car frame. Anyone looked at this location? Alterntive to this would be to move the bottle to front of rad. into the ABS car location. CSP rules allow update/backdate, however, don't know how I would legally handle the pump elec. connector without replacing wiring harness! Have any CSPers out there checked on this? Chuck
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Hi Chuck

At the moment we only offer the IAC Block for the 1.6L. You are correct the block w/ the red vacuum hoses connects to the IAC Block. On our FujiRacing 1.6L and 1.8L there is a port on the intake manifold to hook up your brake vacuum hose if need be. With the 1.8L you have an option to use our little vacuum canister which connects a Map sensor, Fuel regulator, and four vacuum lines to the throttle bodies. The little red vacuum canister cannot be used w/ brake vacuum. I also offer a seperate rectangle vacuum block where you have 6 small ports on top for vacuum and two large ones on the side for brake vacuum. Our 1.8L IRTB intake manifold does not come pre-tapped for the IAT sensor, only the 1.6L. If a customer wants to use our IAT sensor then I tap into it for them. I've never worked w/ LINK so I can't comment on the system. On our FujiRacing 1.8L IRTB Miata I have never used the IAC. Bruce is good and I hope that he will be able to share some idea's. Now with the development of our 1.8L piggyback there will be a IAC block for the 94-97 Miata. I hope that this helps. Feel free to contact me anytime with any questions.

Jimmy
FujiRacing
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Thanks Jimmy, that helped. I would worry about idle without having a IAC. The IAC you are working on for the 1.8 piggyback, will it work with the original ecu? If so, it should work with the link. I will go back and recheck Bruce's idea. If I remember correctly not that hard to do. On the CSP rules about moving the washer bottle, I just found out it doesn't go exactly where I thought it did, also I found tthe following from A. Hollis about updating / backdating it. "A corollary example might help. A non-ABS Miata can run the washer bottle in two places. Either next to the intake manifold like the non-abs cars, or up behind the front bumper like the ABS cars. And your placement is not linked to whether or not your car actually has ABS. The system does not have to be ud/bd as a unit.

Hope I explained that well enough to be understood.

--Andy" Chuck
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Chuck-We are making an 1.8L IAC Block to work with the stock IAC. Andy H. is the guy to go to for all CSP Update/Backdate legal info.

Jimmy
FujiRacing
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Chuck,

Jimmy sent me a kit that had the IAT sensor installed in the manifold. The leads for the sensor are spliced into the factory wiring. The Freedom ems is programmed to take the input from the IAT.

For the IAC block, I picked up an extra thottle body off ebay for dirt and dremeled out a couple of ports and attached it to a blank plate. Tapped a hole for a barb for airflow to the vac canister. One challenge I have had with my IAC mod is flowing enough air. I'm using a small K&N filter that is probably too constrictive and I'm using some pretty small vac lines because I'm concerned with surging of the air volume in the canister and an oscillating MAP output. Remember that air is like a spring and the the more air you have in your vacuum system, the looser that spring. Loose spring means a slower responding MAP sensor. I must say that the used sensor that Jimmy provided with his kit is very fast with no significant oscillation, much quicker than the sensor in my LMA-3, although some of this can be attributed to the volume of air in the line.

I was running an extra tap to the MAP sensor on my LMA-3 for some datalogging and the added volume of the vac line (about 4ft worth) to the extra sensor caused a lot of idle oscillation. Because I'm using some pretty small line, I'm not flowing as much air as I need for complete idle control, and sometimes I'll get stalling.

Freedom will control the ICSV to control idle oscillation and speed. I'm not sure about Link.

To jump on what J_Man is talking about, here is something to think about when you get to the tuning. With IRTBs, your MAP value will be above 700 mmHg (abs) with as small a throttle input as 15%. You'll go from about 400 mmHg to 700 mmHg in only 15% throttle travel. The remaining 85% throttle will get about 700mmHg to just below atmospheric (760mmHg). If you are driving your fuel off of MAP alone, it will be very hard (probably not even possible, but who knows what some other tuners have done) to tune that 85% throttle spread over only 60mmHg pressure change. On Freedom, that covers three bins (700 mmHg, 750 mmHg, 800mmHg, although Freedom will allow me to change the bin width to 25mmHg, but I'm not ready for that yet!). That isn't enough resolution for 85% throttle change. A TPS revision on the base injection map will be critical.

I have a map on the Freedom that doesn't use any throttle revision on the MAP driven injection map and it doesn't run well. Over all, very, very rich. I tried to lean it out for the heck of it, but it just wasn't working without throttle revision. With throttle revision, the A/F ratios are much better (a little rich) and response is much better. Basically, Freedom uses a base timing map, injection map (MAP driven) and has two revision maps for TPS and another for MAP (unused right now, haven't quite figured it out, might be for boost applications), as well as all the normal revisions for coolant temp, air temp and accel enrichment.

Any particular reason you are going for Link? I'd check out some other hardware to at least know what is out there and what the capabilities are. Like Peter has said, the ems is going to make the system. IRTBs are simply valves. Its the ems that does all the work.

Hope this helps.

Bruce
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

I have no idea what all that techno jargon above means, but it sounds like if I shorten some of my vacuum lines to a minimum, my idle (I have a 1.6 using the piggyback) will smooth out. Am I right?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Bruce, I have had the link on the car for 2 years and of course it is to large an investment to replace. According to Keith over at FM it should work fine with IRTB's, but the devil is in the details. After I gather more info. I will be contacting Keith. He was very helpful on the original link inatall/tune which was an adventure. One thing comes to mine, if I read your post correctly. I would have thought a larger volumn plenum sourse for the map siginal would be better. The stock inlet manifold works fine as a sourse for my link map. I sent you a pm, before reading your post here, where I mentioned using a '99 IAC valve modified as you have done. The '99 is smaller and it does not have coolent connections. Using this I would give up engine temp. control of idle air. Since I live in Louisiana and the car is not a daily driver, do not think this will be a problem.
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Hmmm sounds like I need to go ahead and run the TPS wire to my Megasquirt now. Before the Fuji IRTB's I only used the MAP sensor and it worked fine. I am waiting on a new IAC sensor to come in, so I haven't even tried to start the car yet.

Jimmy, I am assuming the three wires on the TPS are +12V (red), Ground (black) and 0-5V output (Brown)?
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Hmmm sounds like I need to go ahead and run the TPS wire to my Megasquirt now. Before the Fuji IRTB's I only used the MAP sensor and it worked fine. I am waiting on a new IAC sensor to come in, so I haven't even tried to start the car yet.

Jimmy, I am assuming the three wires on the TPS are +12V (red), Ground (black) and 0-5V output (Brown)?
On our TPS it is:

Brown=output

Red=5V

Black=Ground

0-0.5V When Throttle plate is closed

5-12V WOT

Jimmy
FujiRacing
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Thanks Jimmy! I just did some reading and the Megasquirt has a 5V Ref line just for TPS sensors. This should make it SUPER easy.
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Chuck,

When you mentioned Keith, I remembered that he is running IRTBs on his Seven. I think he is driving them with Link and is only looking at throttle position for his fuel map, so there must be some TPS injection table capability in Link. I'm not sure if he is looking at MAP at all. If making a trip and you run into elevation change without MAP revision, you will run richer with increasing elevation and leaner with decreasing elevation. As I write this, I realize that perhaps you can run a map sensor to measure atmospheric only. Compare that voltage to a reference voltage that corresponds to the elevation that the motor was tuned at and use the difference between the two voltages to multiply a correction to the entire TPS fuel table. The trick would be to get the EMS to do this real time.

I think the reason the large plenum volume works with your Link MAP is because you are feeding 4 cylinders through a single throttle. The MAP curve is much more linear for that configuration. For IRTBs, because the mass of the air in each throat is so small, pressure can stablize very quickly after the intake valve shuts. I haven't looked at it myself (yet), but I have read that if you only read MAP off a single cylinder in an IRTB setup, the voltage is all over the place, and pretty much unusable. By combining the readings off of all 4 cylinders and into a small vac canister, you can get a smoothed out voltage. The vac canister acts as a damper for all the pressure pulsations. The large plenum does the same for the single throttle setup.

If the 99 ICSV doesn't have coolant running through it, that doesn't necessarily mean that you won't get coolant temp compensation. The EMS gets the coolant temp and might have the capability to be programmed to drive the ICSV for load as well as coolant temperature. That would be a nice, simpler setup than going with the extra coolant plumbing and wax valve. Simpler is better IMHO.

Tim, when I was mentioning the volume of air in the vac lines I was referring to hunting (oscillation) at idle. Remember that the pressure inside your vacuum system is not all the same everywhere in the system. When I was running the extra MAP sensor on my LMA-3 (seems to be a slower sensor, I think it uses a lot of damping in the 1 bar mode, can also be operated in the 3 bar mode) with the volume of air in the lines (as well as a slightly slower sensor) on large changes in vacuum, I would see a lag between the LMA sensor and the Fuji MAP sensor of about 2 seconds before the sensor would stablize! In transients, sometimes the LMA sensor never meet up with the Fuji sensor. If I was driving fuel off the LMA sensor in that unrealistic configuration of a 4 ft long vac line, fuel would rarely match load, except at steady state (cruise).

Extra volume will slow the response time of your sensor (too much damping), so the input into the EMS (and its output signal for fuel) will lag behind the actual conditions of the engine. Another way to attack the hunting is to decrease the response time of the ICSV, although this is a bit of a band aid, since it doesn't really attack the problem. My thought is to keep the volume of air as small as possible to ensure a quick response time in the MAP, but large enough to properly damp the pressure pulses.

Bruce
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Extra volume will slow the response time of your sensor (too much damping)
Don't I know it :lol:

I trimmed down some lines and the car became much more responsive. It'd be nice to have an external MAP that could plug into the piggyback. Lag over wires would be a lot less than over vacuum lines :S
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

If my memory is correct, link uses both map and TPS. Also, I think I remember from Keith's build diary, for the 1.6 IRTB set up in the seven, he ran without the TPS and had problem with the link because of this. Seems the link was looking for signals from TPS under certain conditions and he had tried to use a jumper instead of the TPS. When I read Jimmy's post above about the wiring for his TPS, I went out and checked wiring on my '94. I have a total of four wires going to the TPS. One would be for the throttle position switch which is built in to TPS and according to my shop manual the other two (4th. is ground) are the "accelerator ped. released (0.1-1.0V)" and the "accelerator ped. fully depressed (3.1-4.5V)". I hope this does not mean Jimmy's TPS is not compatible with the existing plug and ecu function. As far as I know, the link handles TPS the same as the original ecu. I am starting to get beyond my depth here, maybe the TPS he described is for a 1.6 and his 1.8 TPS is different. Chuck
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Ok, so from what I can effectively glean from all the jibba jabba above is that if I shorten my overly long vacuum lines, I should have not only better response through the RPM range, but a smoother idle as well?
 

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Re: Questions about Fuli 1.8 kit.

Ok, so from what I can effectively glean from all the jibba jabba above is that if I shorten my overly long vacuum lines, I should have not only better response through the RPM range, but a smoother idle as well?
It's possible.

My thought is to keep the volume of air as small as possible to ensure a quick response time in the MAP, but large enough to properly damp the pressure pulses.
Like Goldielocks and the Three Bears the size of the vacuum log has to be appropriate. You don't want it so big that you've got a large throttled volume to deal with (that's why you went ITBs in the 1st place) but you want it big enough to sufficiently damp the pulses from the individual cylinders to get a good average reading for proper metering.

Besides being incredibly complicated, has anyone ever heard of electronic engine management system (F1 maybe?) that treats the 4 cylinder motor like 4 separate 1 cylinder engines with an individual air flow sensor on the intake side for each cylinder and an EGT probe and heated oxygen sensor on the exhaust side of each cylinder? This way you could have closed loop operation of each cylinder and each one could be optimized. But I guess somehow you'd have to make it all work in harmony.
 
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